A heart-to-heart talk with Sant Kirpal Singh

Sant-Kirpal-Singh--August-1974Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, any one of you?

Question: After the darshan tonight, may I see You privately for about three minutes, Your Holiness?

Sant Kirpal Singh: As long as there is breath – why not? You are welcome. I'm afraid you'll leave here soon?

Question: Tomorrow night – midnight.

Sant Kirpal Singh: (To another disciple) You are going on the same unit, too?

Question: Yes.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Time and tide wait for no man – flies on like anything. Here fifteen minutes is a long time with His Grace. Which of the two times is better?

Question: Sir?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Which of the two times is better? The time of waiting or the time of departure?

Disciple: The time of waiting.


Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes. There may be some chance – God willing, of course.

Question: Some chance of what, Sir?


Sant Kirpal Singh: Meeting.

Question: Again?


Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, we might. God willing.

Disciple: I'll be glad to wait.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Otherwise, I am in the evening of my life – not the day. His Grace is above.

Disciple: Could be for both of us.


Sant Kirpal Singh: Maybe. (Master chuckles.) All right, any questions?

Disciple: I don't have any questions.


Sant Kirpal Singh: I think you remember the event of Birbal, the minister?

Disciple: Yes, sir.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Do you remember the reason I go into it?

Question: Not to think evil of others?

Sant Kirpal Singh: It so happened that the other ministers complained against Birbal. Birbal was one of the ministers of Akbar the Great, very jolly, very dutiful. So one day all the other ministers complained, "Birbal is of a low nature. He seems to be from a family of low consciousness people. But you give him very much respect here in court. If you want to judge, you can go and see his father for your own self." He said, "All right." So Birbal went to his father in the evening and told him, "The King will come to see you. He'll challenge you, but we pay obeisance and show respect for him. You can ask him a few questions, this and that thing, but after that remain silent. Then, whatever he questions, don't reply." When the King came, Birbal's father did as he was told. Later the King asked Birbal, "Look here, Birbal, if we meet some foolish man, what should we do?" Birbal replied, "We should keep silent."

You see, he was not educated; a very ordinary person. What should he do? For one salient point – silence. Now come up with your view. (All chuckle.) Is it not?  Yes, go on – talk! You're welcome.

Question: Excuse me, Your Holiness. Is it better sometimes to become so absorbed within the Master's eyes and in His face and see the transfiguration of His face than to listen to what He says? When the Master is speaking at the time of darshan, sometimes one gets absorbed into Your eyes so that they forget every-thing and they don't even hear what Your Holiness is saying. And no one else seems to be about.


Sant Kirpal Singh: What can be spoken in silence, cannot be spoken through words, you see.

Disciple: Thank You.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Silence is always golden. So eyes are the windows of the soul. Eyes are the windows of the soul. Drink deeply into It. This is what is wanted. Once Christ gave out in a direct way that He was Word-made-flesh. Later on He said, "All right, eat me and drink me." They were wondering how to eat Him and drink Him, forgetting that He had said that He was the Word-made-flesh. So eyes are the windows of the soul. If you are absorbed there, then that's all right. Guru Nanak once told the disciples to eat one dead body which was lying with a cloth over it. "Eat the dead body!" (Master makes a face and imitates Guru Nanak's disciples with an undertone: "Eat a dead body?") Then, when the (later) second Guru, about to obey, took off the cloth, there was candy. This is metaphorical, you see. So eyes are on the highest level. They do the highest work. They can convey the message without talking. The mind mingles with the heart. You understand better through the eyes than from any-   body speaking. So that Science is very definite. To withdraw into the radiation of the eyes is a stepping-stone into the higher level. It is better still to go up. Forget the eyes once you are in the know.

In the old days there were different ways of conveying messages. The student had four classes: primary class, middle class – all the way up. So this is something of the college class. Master's face is a new sort of absorption. "Eating" and "drinking" eyes is of college teaching.

Once I remember our Master was sitting. Just as I came in He said, "Sit by me, speak something." I always talked to Him about what was on my mind, and the people were hearing all. Once I said, "In Swami Ji's time, there were Sikh customs. Masters used to sit in front. You could look – eyes into eyes – forgetting everything." Later on when they used to meet the Master (Baba Sawan Singh), they begged like that and looked (Master gestures with hands beneath the eyes), you see. Sometimes they bent down to the feet of the Master, who said, "I'm here, never mind. I'm here. Look up here!" Then the people, old people there, began to cry. "Why don't You give us this thing now?" (touching His feet.)

I think this is a higher class: the eyes. It is for those who rise above body-consciousness. But we are stuck fast in the body. The love or attachment that starts in the flesh and ends in the flesh is lust; that starts through body alone. Rise above body through the eyes! Spirit is not in the body, but in the eyes. So people came crying, "Why don't You give us (it) in that way?" Make it the Truth. But those who've got no devotion, turn away. Our Master used to say the hungry calf went to the cow and the mother let go of the milk. She can drink more. The others were ticks on the breast, sucking blood. So long as you are in the flesh and blood, the eyes are stepping stone for our training. The learned people advise to visualize Master's form. I never did.

Question:  Would You go over that just one more time?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes. Almost all "masters", when they initiate, tell to just visualize the master's form. I never did, you see. And some twenty per cent, forty per cent, fifty per cent, sixty per cent, see. Why do they tell this? Number one, this gives you a stillness for a while. However, when you think of somebody, you can visualize a man who is up to your level or below you. But you cannot visualize those who are above that level, that's all. They get some little stillness, that's all right. But that's not all of it. So God is one who comes from above. When you enter the room where one is sitting, whether you visualize him before entering or not, you'll find him in there. At initiation he is embedded. To visualize is very dangerous. If you visualize somebody, you become what he is. Nobody guides us, meets us. So that is why I don't say, "Visualize". I don't say, "Visualize me." Others do, I think. They visualize form from portraits. There are many things to be learned. Self-evident truths. They are all rambling there about, crying. "Why, why, why don't we find peace?" Why? – Don't visualize! That's why we find many are stuck fast. Instead of going higher they are stuck. These things are not given out in books. Not in the same way. A very gift – eyes speak through eyes to you who sits inside. Is it not so? Only then you'll understand. You'll have constant company of the Master by physical presence or by developing receptivity. When nothing remains between you and Him, you are receptive. Then and only then you can have constant company of the Master. But all the same, if you are visualizing the Master only as physical man and are only attached to the physical body and other things, this is wrong!

Question: Some people might be in a car. They imagine that You are also riding along and talk out loud. Is there any benefit in that? Imaginary ...

Sant Kirpal Singh: It comes of itself. That comes of itself.

Question: But they are imagining it.

Sant Kirpal Singh: What comes of itself is vivid.

Question: I don't understand.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Sometimes people see vividly, sometimes only in feelings.

Question: If it's feelings, though –


Sant Kirpal Singh: If you are feeling, then naturally it is better to move higher. That (feelings) is only up to the physical level though. Kabir says, "If you take Him only as a man, you will go down to hell again and again", you see.

They who are not conversant with the teachings cannot give out, because they are binding you and for that your intellect will be burnt. They won't help. Moreover you are dealing in diamonds! Put your attention in there, you'll find more. By putting in time daily (for meditation) you'll move higher and go (back). So you really become an initiate when you find and talk to Master within at your will.

Question: Could You repeat that last statement?


Sant Kirpal Singh: When you have a heart-to-heart talk with Him whenever you like. Close your eyes. That will come. It is just like television, that's all. It requires practice.

Question: But not imagination?

Sant Kirpal Singh: No, no, no. Imagination is of your own make. So that is why I say don't visualize anything, don't premeditate anything. Some men do begin to initiate.

Question: Sir?


Sant Kirpal Singh: Some people do begin to initiate. And people say that he is the guru.

Disciple: I've heard about that.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Through hearsay?

Question: Some person said that they have seen the Master alive in front of them.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, that can be.

Question: That can be, also?


Sant Kirpal Singh: Why can't He do it? In the microscope we see even the atmosphere is full of microbes. We have microbes everywhere (although normally they cannot be seen).

Question: Beloved, I heard a story that Your Holiness was in America in 1955 and You were giving a Satsang and at the same time You were giving Satsang here in India – thousands of people saw You.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes.

Question: Well, they want to know whether they can see You on the outside and whether You are able to be at more places than one.


Sant Kirpal Singh: Word is Guru!

Disciple: Yes.

Sant Kirpal Singh: The Word-made-flesh. That's what I tell you, that's all. They have seen me in astral.

Question: Then there's the story of my brother, who is not a practising Satsangi. He was coming out of the cafeteria, and out of a bistro came a man who was intoxicated with liquor and driving his car at such a force. And then my brother said, "Is it possible that I can see the Master standing in front of me?" And I said, "Yes, why not?" He said, "You know, like this picture?" I said, "Yes, why not?" "Well, that's what happened." He said, "Master loomed up in front of me. And both the cars stopped."


Sant Kirpal Singh: That saved him.

Disciple: So there's proof there. There it is.


Sant Kirpal Singh: Grace can be extended. Sometimes the car is upturned, and nobody is hurt; like that story. That power is always overhead. We have got no faith in the Master, as a child has faith in his mother.

Disciple: Today, Father, we had to go out on an errand. And all of a sudden there was a terrible accident. One car hit an-other car and it turned over, and immediately I was saying the charged words with full power. And our driver went over to see what happened. He came back and said, "Not much harm done. He just got a little hit  here (pointing to shoulder)." He was thrown out of the car. The car turned over. And the power of your charged  Words I know saved a lot of trouble there.


Sant Kirpal Singh: Others may or may not believe you, but it is a fact.

Disciple: It's a fact. Yes, thank You, Satguru.


Sant Kirpal Singh: So by spirituality you begin to understand everything quite natural like, heart-to-heart talks. Our Master used to talk very simply with due reverence for all. I always used to sit at the back at Satsang. Generally rich people stood in the front, right in front. One day one advocate who came to talk to me came in and sat by me. I told him, "Your seat is in front." "Look here," he replied, "I see Master from here. Master's eyes always look to me." The more receptive we are, the more we get. Everybody gets that.

Disciple: Many have seen the Master becoming like Guru Nanak and some have seen the Master becoming as our grandfather Hazur.

Sant Kirpal Singh: That very power comes through the different human poles. When Guru Nanak once left the body, he blossomed. When they wept, He simply said, "Look here, if a friend of yours goes away today, he comes in another robe another day. What difference does it make?" Clothes may be changed but That won't. These are very delicate points. People have already known some experience of this, practically. So as I told you, spirituality starts only from ABC.

Question: Master, is there any thing that we can do consciously to prolong the effect of the radiation that we get in Master's physical presence?


Sant Kirpal Singh: By receptivity have it all the time. Not prolonged, but all the time.

Question: We shouldn't miss it.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes. "Microscope" it. Don't be led away by the outward show. Our Master used to give a very good example of this – one painting which had very good form, natural scenery, birds and everything. But when you saw the other side there was nothing – appeared to be nothing. But when you have a microscope, it is quite different.

Such a man can save you, but not others. When they rise up to that, they can satisfy you.
(To the person leaving the next day) Suppose you have any points: bring them to be satisfied.

Question: All right, thank You, Sir.

Sant Kirpal Singh: When the child enters the school, it is a training ground. He is shown to write ABC, then he can write script. Similarly that state may be felt when you go up. That is why further guidance is required. You are most fortunate. Others are not. In heart-to-heart talks you'll find many things He says in public are not said in books. But that is not all. There is still more further ....

Question: Satguru, when one feels Your Holiness, Your presence, all the time and they don't feel the pangs of separation but they feel your powerful presence all the times ...?


Sant Kirpal Singh: That's a relationship between you and Him. Not for everybody.

Disciple: Good.


Sant Kirpal Singh: I'll tell you why; it is a gift. You would not like all the worldly love to be known by anybody. Why do you let them, let others know God is Guru? Excuse me, if I say so. In the beginning, when I went to my Master, people asked me how great is your Guru? I replied, "Of that much I know, He is far, far above what I need: Of that much I can be certain. When He speaks of God, He must be Guru. Something knows about God in Him." And the people judged by His Grace. I hope you remember His advice. That is why, let them find out for themselves!

Disciple: Yes, Master.

Sant Kirpal Singh: To tell lies for the proof of the Master's greatness is wrong. If people see, that's all right. Say as much as you know.

Disciple: Lies are lies.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes. They deceive others, with your very Life Source. I have not written these things in books. Everybody can have That. It is not for any privileged sect. The door is opened for anybody.

Once our Master was at the railroad station and there was one Christian who detained him on the way, "Look here, is Christ greater or is your Guru greater? Who is greater?" – "The Christ I have not seen physically, but my Guru I have seen. If you bring both together, I will tell you." They are one in two and two in one. Those who have known them say like that. These are comparisons. Let others say who is greater. This is for those who are attentive, I would say. They will get It.

At first I had trouble at previous conferences (of the World-Fellowship of Religions) and with developing man-centre. But they all are coming together now in Love for God. This is His work. So this is the only remedy for all the ills of the day. All right. It is your food time now. Go eat, and God bless you.